Curse

Samurai-JM · Apr 04, 2007, 07:25 PM // 19:25

Already posted this in a dervish thread, thought it might have some relevance here. This is a vague list of some of the main strengths and weaknesses of the three main melee classes: Warrior, Assassin, and Dervish, and the comparisons between them.

Warriors: The super tanks of GW, 80 base armor with +20 physical added on that, as well as shield and many defense stances make them capable of taking loads of damage. Skills such as Triple Chop and Hundred Blades add to that effect by doing AoE damage to adjacent foes gathered up on the tank. However, warriors can have surprisingly low damage output compared with the other classes. They can add conditions to damage, but the overall DPS is normally slower than Dervishes or Assassins.

Summary: Big. Slow. Tank. Massive amounts of armor/dmg reduction, not as much offense, although still formidable.

Assassin: The speed demons of GW. With only 70 armor and melee range offenses, they have been known to go down fast in Canthan missions with afflicted. However, they really shine out in NF and Proph as some of the quickest killers without having to worry about mobs of exploding baddies. They either spike their way around the enemies or moebius tank against single enemies with added AoE from death blossom. Many assassin builds also pile on harmful conditions to quickly bring down foes.

Summary: Low Armored. Fast. Deadly. Not as much armor and protection as other melee classes, but much faster, more DPS, and more conditions.

Dervish: The newest mix of Offense and Defense in GW. By using loads of enchantments and energy from Mysticism, this class can easily load up on enchantments to counter their 70 armor, unlike assassins capability. They also have the massive damage capability of the scythe with 9-41 damage and abilities to hit 3 enemies at once. Attack skills are a bit more limited here to make way for spells and support, and the attack speed is slower than the others, but the pure power makes them very strong against several enemies.

Summary: Spell Based. Mixed offensively and defensive. Slower, but Stronger. Dervishes are a new take on melee, and seem to be very balanced between the far ends of the defensive tanks and the quick killers of previous games.

Just a reference page I suppose, but thought it could be of use here instead of just one professions forum.

clawofcrimson · Apr 04, 2007, 08:07 PM // 20:07

Warriors
spiking:-------
pressure:-------

Assasin
spiking:----------
pressure:---

Dervish
spiking:---
pressure:---------

ZenRgy · Apr 04, 2007, 10:28 PM // 22:28

What are you talking about?

Warriors have little to no offense, why do you think we have great elites like Defy pain!

Selket · Apr 04, 2007, 10:37 PM // 22:37

how warrior be offensive, we have dolyak signet, no need for move only need for take hit!

fb2000 · Apr 04, 2007, 10:44 PM // 22:44

some warrior builds can quite _easily_ outdamage assassins, im quite sure of it.. also have a nice spiking potential last i saw/used ;P

havent seen many dervishes in action to make a judgement on that tho.

Stormlord Alex · Apr 04, 2007, 11:09 PM // 23:09

Huh?

Warriors are the most versatile of the three - they can pressure extremely well, spike well, apply deepwound easily, and they offer a lot in the way of disruption (hammer KD chains, shock, bull's strike etc.) Their ability to buildup adrenaline and then switch targets completely make them a very unpredictable class in PvP. Combined with a decent self-heal and tough armour, they can go without back up fairly well and can overextend better than other classes. Additionally, some of their skills and elites are totally kickass - YAA!, Eviscerate, Dragon Slash (PvE wise fo sho'). They've also got a decent salvo of defensive skills for PvE, and for /W to draw on should the need arise.

Assassins are all about one thing - the spike. They do it well, for a few seconds every now and then they have insane DPS. Though they suffer from traditional melee counters as a warrior or derv does, it's magnified in the 'sins case - one RoF, a Blinding Flash or blocking stance, and you're left pitifully auto-attacking for the next 20 seconds or whatever. Also, some chains relying on hexes to trigger (the ever-popular SP/BoA, I'm looking at you) give away the spike, making the 'sin RoF fodder for any monk worth his salt. Their ability to spike and take down unwary foes makes them a good class for random formats, and shadowsteps are useful too. Their pressure is terrible though, as is their self-healing and survival capacity (yes, I know about Flashing Blades, Critical Defences etc. but it's still paltry compared to the warrior and derv for the most part).

The dervish is the opposite end of the spectrum to the assassin - it can pump out pressure very well, with sub-par spiking abilities. With the highest base damage weapon in the game (plenty of criticals against fleeing foes make for some big numbers), some sweet run buffs, and ability to lay down Cripple, Deepwound and enchant removals make it a fairly versatile class (though lacking in the disruptive and spiking powers of the warrior). Though reliant on energy, Mysticism's returns allow the dervish to keep pulling off attacks and skills throughout the fight. Some powerful defensive and self-healing skills allow them to overextend fairly well, as well as giving them the 'tank' option in PvE.

Overall, IMO, the classes scale up like this:

Spike = Assassin > Warrior > Dervish

Pressure = Dervish = or > Warrior (depending on build) > Assassin

Overall usefulness = Warrior > Dervish = Assassin - depending on the tactics and makeup of the team.

Yeah.

Samurai-JM · Apr 05, 2007, 02:26 AM // 02:26

^ Also depends on the build really.

For example(s):

A Triple Chop/Cyclone Axe Warrior could deal some very nice damage in mobs, while a sever/gash/final thrust Warrior would focus more on killing single targets. Warriors do have SOME spiking skills, such as executioners strike, but most are adrenaline powered and take a long time to charge up.

An Assassin can go either way. Most of the time they spike with the SP(or AP, in my case) BoA build to jump in and kill then run away. BUT they also have the Moebius/DB build which is much stronger and faster than the Triple Chop/Cyclone combo. Heres a quick comparison:

(assume all values to be from attribute level 16)

Warrior base Axe damage = 6-28
Triple Chop = 42 damage, AoE, 5 energy, 10 second recharge.
Cyclone Axe = 13 damage, AoE, cost 5 energy, 4 second recharge.

Assassin base Dagger damage = 7-17
Death Blossom = +47 damage, AoE, cost 5 energy, 2 second recharge, hits twice.
Moebius Strike = +37 damage, cost 5 energy, 2 second recharge, allows chain of dual attacks, recharges other attacks.

Now death blossom alone does about 1.5x more than the triple chop/cyclone axe combo, and it is usable more than twice as often. Which seems like better pressure to you?

Dervishes are also good for PvE pressure, as they attack up to 3 enemies at once and have a few AoE attacks, such as Chilling Victory.

ss1986v2 · Apr 05, 2007, 04:02 AM // 04:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Samurai-JM

...about pressure...

agreed that assassin have the ability to apply pressure, but the number show better on paper than in practice. to effectively pressure, you have to have the ability to overextend from time to time. this is where the assassin falls short compared to the derv and warrior. a sin that overextends frequently will become a prime target. wander too far from your healing/protection and you will see a spike coming your way for sure. the derv and warrior have the ability to absorb that initial hit, giving their monks time to react. the assassin lacks this survivability.

where the sin makes up for this is in shadow stepping. but most shadow stepping skills require a target or are random, so it doesnt solve the overextending issue. the only answer is recall, but with the resent change, an enchant removal will send you right back to where you came from before you have a chance to apply any significant pressure.

the chain issue also comes into affect. get hit with melee hate, and you are not only weakened the same as a warrior or derv, but have the potential to wreck your chain. a warrior that misses evis still has the rest of his chain to try and drop. a derv isnt affected any further than the initial miss, being energy driven and less chain oriented. miss with your lead/offhand and that next step in the chain cant see use until that first attack is recharged. redundant skills do help this (running both BLS and BSS), but the chain is still in threat of being disrupted further, along with effectively cutting your dmg in half. on a pressure build it can be devastating as well. if you cant connect with your leader consistently, then you cant make use of the moebius/DB spam. aegis is good example of this. if your lead misses 50% of the time, then you never get to the bulk of your dmg, which is back loaded. again, good use of hexes get around this on a spike (expose ftw!) but requiring a hex on a target in order to apply pressure wont work in the end.

this is all from the pvp perspective though. in pve, things are entirely different. anything and everything can work, and in the hands of the right person, a sin is a beast. with both the ability to spike like mad (assassin promise ftw!) and the ability to pressure (moebius ftw!). the same survivability issues arise, but with much more lax requirements, its not too hard to get things done. still wouldnt advocate standing in the middle of an afflicted clusterfark with the moebius/DB spam, but that doesnt make them useless.

Teh [prefession]-zorz · Apr 05, 2007, 04:53 AM // 04:53

Id say that a ranger has the best pressure :P

but between these 3, if you can survive the first 5 seconds of the assassins attack your fine, and the dervish relys a lot of enchantments for boosted atk speed and whatnot so i think the frenzy hammer war takes the cake

Darth Kukulkan · Apr 05, 2007, 10:06 AM // 10:06

And FROM WHERE the assassin has less armor than your redneck tarlouze en robe of dervish ?
Sin>Warrior>dervish, which is useless both in elite pve and pvp, just that everyone play them for the novelty : it is fashion to have a Dervish "o yeah look at my robe and my avatar" *bim a dagger between shoulders*
Stop saying sins have a low armor, they have 70, like rangers, like dervish and what ?
+15 with enchant for D, +15 against elemental damage for R okay... but sins do have +15 while attacking, just combine with flashing daggers it has a great survivability

It's like the same wammos since Factions' release love saying that sins have a cardboard armor... i'd say that they have are canned food

Stormlord Alex · Apr 05, 2007, 11:05 AM // 11:05

Samurai... In your comparison, you failed to bring up a couple of points -

- Axes have a greater base damage, warriors can output significant pressure without burning a single point of energy. The damage from daggers sucks, they need to spam attack skills to be on par with a warrior. The warrior also gets shiny IAS that increase his base damage by... what? 33% IAS is a... 50% base damage boost.

- Using up your elite slot to be able to pressure as good as a warrior? Yeah.
Also, Triple Chop/Cylone Axe is really only good in PvE, I generally compare classes from a PvP aspect. Also, any kind of melee hate that would kill the 'sins DB/Moebius chain renders his 'pressure' laughable - while this hate affects the warrior too, he can keep auto attacking for NO energy while the 'sin has to restart the chain on someone else, wait out the prots/hexes or expend energy trying to continue DB/Moebius looping.

- The warrior is much tougher. Fact. When upfront pressuring the enemy, a warrior can keep at it while under (even heavy) fire, a 'sin would have to retreat or die.

- If someone gets protted to hell, the warrior can switch targets. The assassin can switch targets too, but expends energy in doing so and has to restart the combo. Yeah.

And adrenaline doesn't take all too long to charge up... it's even faster with FGJ!, Enraging Charge or an IAS.

While the DB/Moebius 'sins does look good on paper, admittedly, it is still not as good as a warrior in practice. Well... it is good in PvE, which is a moot point because you can get through PvE with no skills + heros or - even Mending...

Samurai-JM · Apr 05, 2007, 04:12 PM // 16:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stormlord Alex

Samurai... In your comparison, you failed to bring up a couple of points -

- Axes have a greater base damage, warriors can output significant pressure without burning a single point of energy. The damage from daggers sucks, they need to spam attack skills to be on par with a warrior. The warrior also gets shiny IAS that increase his base damage by... what? 33% IAS is a... 50% base damage boost.

- Using up your elite slot to be able to pressure as good as a warrior? Yeah.
Also, Triple Chop/Cylone Axe is really only good in PvE, I generally compare classes from a PvP aspect. Also, any kind of melee hate that would kill the 'sins DB/Moebius chain renders his 'pressure' laughable - while this hate affects the warrior too, he can keep auto attacking for NO energy while the 'sin has to restart the chain on someone else, wait out the prots/hexes or expend energy trying to continue DB/Moebius looping.

- The warrior is much tougher. Fact. When upfront pressuring the enemy, a warrior can keep at it while under (even heavy) fire, a 'sin would have to retreat or die.

- If someone gets protted to hell, the warrior can switch targets. The assassin can switch targets too, but expends energy in doing so and has to restart the combo. Yeah.

And adrenaline doesn't take all too long to charge up... it's even faster with FGJ!, Enraging Charge or an IAS.

While the DB/Moebius 'sins does look good on paper, admittedly, it is still not as good as a warrior in practice. Well... it is good in PvE, which is a moot point because you can get through PvE with no skills + heros or - even Mending...

^I was talking about PvE though lol. and I'd like to see how you get through the entire game with nothing but mending...

And warriors adrenaline requiring no energy is nice sure, but thats mainly because there are hardly any ways for them to USE any energy effectively. They only have about 20 max energy to start with, and only 2 pips. Assassins have between 30-40 and 4 pips, plus loads of e-management skills that most assassins use, plus nearly every good assassin has a set of zealous daggers.

About the base damage, although assassins have low 7-17 hits, that is made up for by skills dealing +30-40 armor ignoring damage in very quick succession while laying conditions. And about having to "retreat or die" as you said for assassins, not true at all. Any sin can keep on a target with as little support as Way of Perfection or Shadow Refuge. They simply kill faster then move away so they don't get attacked as much.

EDIT: In PvP I still use that moebius/DB build, and it works with the right strategy. With critical defenses and critical strike added in, it can take any melee opponent. The only trouble is elementalists or hexes. Sometimes ill carry smite hex or something for the latter, and elementalists are normally easy to escape(if they are AoE, which most are nowadays) but if there really is trouble with other damage, just heal and escape. Build comes completely with Dark Escape and Shadow Refuge/Feigned Neutrality.

LightningHell · Apr 05, 2007, 05:28 PM // 17:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darth Kukulkan

And FROM WHERE the assassin has less armor than your redneck tarlouze en robe of dervish ?
Sin>Warrior>dervish, which is useless both in elite pve and pvp, just that everyone play them for the novelty : it is fashion to have a Dervish "o yeah look at my robe and my avatar" *bim a dagger between shoulders*
Stop saying sins have a low armor, they have 70, like rangers, like dervish and what ?
+15 with enchant for D, +15 against elemental damage for R okay... but sins do have +15 while attacking, just combine with flashing daggers it has a great survivability

It's like the same wammos since Factions' release love saying that sins have a cardboard armor... i'd say that they have are canned food

I don't know what you are talking about.

Dervishes have AoE autoattacks, which are highly desired in PvE. They also have Enchantments that let them survive in ridiculous conditions (in PvE). And in PvP a Dervish can apply and sustain a respectable amount of pressure, as well as playing in godmode - or something close to that - half the time.

Warriors are still the most versatile of them, though. Speaking in terms of PvP.

Mekkakat · Apr 10, 2007, 03:04 PM // 15:04

this is the worst post i've ever seen on GWG.. the descriptions are totally biased and juvenile

warrior: most balanced class in the game as far as melee goes, capable of some of the biggest spikes in the game, pressure, and survivabilty. almost totally unmatched in the melee pvp world to this day

assassin: amazing dps.. for about 5 seconds. but usually, thats all it takes. this is THE class for assissted spike damage, and note ASSISSTED due to the lack of survivabilty in the stereotypical usage *note, there ARE ways to counter the lack of survivabilty

dervish: sadly reliant on a spam of enchants to do just about anything for the most part, are great at applying mad pressure, but lack practically any spikes unless you run that specific set.

as far as a general use in pve: warrior and dervish, with warrior in 1st place for damage and versatillity, paragons for healing and pressuring while the tank or ele does all the damage

and for pvp: warrior and sins, hands down. i've yet to see good dervs in TA/RA/HA, although i have seen some GREAT pressurers in GvG. warriors ad sin builds will vary just like in any situation, but typically warriors will have more of a choice as to what to play.. not just BoA lol

and for the RIDICULUS post about warriors dealing no damage and only being tanks.. get your head out of WoW and actually look at the real dps

get a derv to do the same dps as evis or decapitate at 15/16 weapon mastery and prove that that squishy can go toe to toe with a experienced warrior.

please dont be biased, all 3 can do a multitude of things, and be great at those things, but know where the roots are and what is still the most used/reliable i.e. warrior. its been killing players and beast in GWs since proph, so you cant say its only for tanking, cause you're just missing out

Coloneh · Apr 10, 2007, 11:59 PM // 23:59

Assasins are about the spike. thats it.

but i think dervishes are warriors are comparable. but everyone has their favorite. I like my dervish and cant find anything a warrior can do that my dervish cant do better. but experienced warriors might have as much sucess. I dont think we need to compare them.

Mekkakat · Apr 11, 2007, 12:07 AM // 00:07

the way i see it is like this..

this is a statistic-based post, that is about Joe Public. any experienced anything will be far superior to newer, novice, and ect.. so no, while i do not wish to compare silly things like opinions, i do feel as though warriors were totally flamed on in this post when its been proven time and time again they still have the highest longterm dps in the game, and their versatility is unmatched. im not being biased in any way, my fav class is ranger/mesmer, but i would like to see people not post based on a stereotyped view if the discussion is dealing with real numbers.

moriz · Apr 11, 2007, 12:10 AM // 00:10

most of you completely missed the mark about warriors.

they are NOT tanks. they are shock troopers. high innate defense, high natural damage, high natural survivability. they are the ideal physical damage dealers, and can surpass assassins and dervishes on almost any front if played by a skilled player.

Mekkakat · Apr 11, 2007, 12:54 AM // 00:54

amen Moriz :P

Mesmer in Need · Apr 11, 2007, 01:02 AM // 01:02

Warriors are the best equipped for being on the battlefield, with better armour and a shield, as well they can do a good deal of damage. if they can stay on the battlefield longer, they can provide more overall damage imo.
Sins, because of their low armour level, they cant stay in direct fire for as long, but they can teleport out. Because they cant stay one the battlefield all the time, they can't deal as much dot, but they can do quick bursts of high dmg.
Dervishes have excellent skills for giving them healt and/or armour, and they can stay on the battlefield for a good amount of time, but they eventually have to reatreat. The god forms can also add a tactical advantage.

Coloneh · Apr 11, 2007, 01:20 AM // 01:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

most of you completely missed the mark about warriors.

they are NOT tanks. they are shock troopers. high innate defense, high natural damage, high natural survivability. they are the ideal physical damage dealers, and can surpass assassins and dervishes on almost any front if played by a skilled player.

this is my point. people say this, and i know my dervish can outdamage, and out tsurvive anything i can do on my warrior. I suppose its a matter of opinion.